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1. everwonthetreble July 9th, 2012 11:17 pm :

   Gorn:

   If I can find a way to get massive UNITED > ENGLAND banner in past security then I will most definitely be there c;) In all seriousness I would love to be there to heckle YSBs but fortunately for you lot, I’ve got a prior commitment.

   Oh, and Pogba should consider himself done professionally. With the way Juve have approached the transfer market I don’t see where he fits in for the next 6 years at least.

   re RVP:
   Bear with me, I just got back from the DR and there was almost no service in our resort. Apart from that it was a lovely place. I’ll keep it short…

   Players should stick to what they know best which is kicking a football for 90 minutes. They’re not upper management material and therefore should cut the shite with the “club’s ambitions don’t match mine.” They don’t have a clue. There are only two players in the world of football who should even be allowed to entertain the thought of approaching management with that rhetoric and RVP is most certainly not one of them. Arsenal will be more than fine providing Wilshere comes back healthy.

2. everwonthetreble July 10th, 2012 9:32 pm :

   Another gem from IBWM… http://inbedwithmaradona.com/journal/2012/7/10/the-end-of-michael-owen.html

   MLS does seem the right fit for him at this stage in his career.

3. gorn July 11th, 2012 4:44 am :

   Came home to a flooded condo, so looks like 8 weeks of displacement ahead for me. Needless to say, I may be back on hiatus from this here board.

   AG:
   Ok, deep breath, grab a coffee, get comfy. (c:

   FTR, you’ll note that I wasn’t saying that those were my arguments, but that they are out there, and some points have no less merit than some of the ones you pose….

   “I recognize [selling RvP only to a non-British club] might limit his transfer fee but do we really need extra cash that Wenger isn’t going to spend, especially when he already has 50m at his disposal?”
   This. This is what I was trying to say. He’s not buying elite, ready-made talent, even when his club is pretty gauddamn close. I guess I’d pose the opposite: do you think it more or less likely that RvP and Na$ri are g00n3rZ if he’d bought a close-to-like replacement for Franny? Or even better, hung onto Franny by bringing in another world class player? Cesc was gonnye play for Barca eventually, but I bet Arsene coulda made it a lot harder for him to leave, and kept him @ AFC longer. Obviously YMMV.

   “It’s funny how all these players who slate the club’s ambition always seem to manage to significantly improve their pay packets after leaving Holloway Road.”
   This would be a valid point if Les Gauls paid top dollar. But they haven’t (except mebbe Henry?), don’t, and never will with The Voyeur in charge. So, unless yer saying that players should only leave Arsenal for lousier/less ambitious/lower profile clubs, this doesn’t even make sense. Sorry. (c:

   “Funny thing, though, they don’t always maintain the same standards they set at Arsenal. I call it the Hleb effect and it will be interesting to see whether it afflicts RvP as much as it has with Flamini, Adebayor, Kolo and Nasri.”
   No one ever said Arsene is dumb. He has been able to hold onto most of his best players until 27-28 when the tread starts to wear on his players, and rarely keeps a player after 30. This is well known. But that really isn’t the point: can you say with certainty that NONE of those players Wenger shuffled off/let go due to wages would have kept L’Arse stronger by STAYING? Cuz that’s a different kettle of fish, my friend.

   “Wenger hasn’t spent to address needs except for AA? Really? Not the 10m for the Verminator? Or the 10m for Mertesacker? Or the 8m on Koscielny? Or the 8m for Arteta? Or 7m for Sagna, Wenger has never been afraid to spend”
   Well, if you redefine “spend” on me, then Fulham throws the dosh around too. Quoting a bunch of mid-range buys in the 8-12m bracket isn’t spending, and it’s certainly not buying world class. That’s the kind of shopping Rafa did on sells-only finances, aside from Masch (Fern was heavliy subsidized by Bellamy, among others).

   That’s what my point was. C’mon, Will, let’s not start this “misusing my points to make me look like I’m saying something I’m not” stuff, again, please. I’m STILL not wearing sky blue, nor am I taking sides with SoccerTrickVieira. dc: I don’t think the sky is falling; AFC isn’t in any danger of dropping from the top 6 (or 5, depending on the Spuds disrepair). But do I think they can win the PL, CL, or even an FA Cup (by virtue of Wenger’s historic Cup squads)? Nope, and that’s not just about not spending petro-dollars; if he had spent a little more before, he’d have to spend about what he’s spending now IMO.

   “he’s also adopted the Barcelona/Bayern model of buying/developing young players”
   He started this some time ago, he’s done it as well or better than anyone, and ppl are now running around calling it Moneyball. (c: It’s just that the inefficiencies in the market have drastically shriveled in the last coupla years. No knock on AW at all, but IMO he should have adjusted sooner by buying Podolski’s (upper mid-range/low high-range guys who are undervalued or want to play for AW), and the odd 18-27m stud to supplement. This woulda protected him from defections, as well as give AFC’s top players more hope/reason to stay.

   “Whether it’s the wage structure or the club’s commitment to youth development is open to question. I don’t think Wenger or the current board is going to change it because they are committed to being run as a sensible business.”
   Right, but is there no middle ground? Is there no scenario where buying a STUD makes sense? I think there is, The Voyeur clearly thinks there’s not. And that’s the rub, that’s my frustration and where the doubt comes from.

   “He brought in Vieira (who was purchased as a condition of him joining the club), Henry, Pires, Campbell, Lauren, Lehmann, Toure, Wiltord, Ljungberg and on and on and on.”
   So why did he stop? What were those purchases worth in today’s dollars, Will? More than an £8m Arteta? £10m Verm? I bet lots were more than £12m Poddy.

   “A lot of Wenger’s critics either weren’t around or have conveniently forgotten how much he reshaped the club on his arrival.”
   No, this is beside the point. His effect upon taking over the club is unquestioned, but so is the talent there when he assumed managership. It’s not an either-or. Arsene wouldn’t've taken the job if the club was bereft of talent.

   But he never had to start over from scratch (more or less) until… when… 2006-ish? This is the time frame everyone is trying to talk about, 2006-2012. In THAT light, 1998 can look differently. It’s not an indictment to say that a manager is a ‘build a club from ground up’ or a ‘take a club above and beyond’ type. No one criticizes TSO for not being able to create a squad (at least, without £300m in purchases).

   “Just listing off those names underscores the point that Arsenal’s squad has not been deep enough to cope with serious injuries in recent years, whether it was RvP’s knee/ankle/heel/rape charge, Cesc’s hamstrings, the Verminator’s Achilles problems, Ramsey’s broken leg or Wilshere’s ankle (all of which contributed to Arsenal’s lack of silverware).”
   It’s not merely ‘injuries’, it’s some horrific ones to their most important players. The reason I know The Voyeur is still a geni0us is because there’s few men who could’ve attained the results AFC has given what’s happened the last 3 years or whatever. But, as you say, it also highlights a lack of top-end talent in the squad, which was the sole point of my first post. I think. \c:

   “Players will come and go. The club will be fine.”
   Of course, if by fine you mean solvent and competitive on 3 fronts. ATM, it looks like a lot of luck (or a philosophical change) will be required to win anything. That’s not terrible, but Arsene is should be doing better than that.

   But credit where credit is due: he’s made a few moves this summer for players with very good CVs at a position they sorely needed. I’d like to see another monster at the back so/and Verm can stop moving around every game and dominate the middle like they need. And it would be nice to see if Gibbs is actually the real deal.

4. Soccerlogical July 11th, 2012 1:45 pm :

   “Players will come and go. The club will be fine.”
   Of course, if by fine you mean solvent and competitive on 3 fronts. ATM, it looks like a lot of luck (or a philosophical change) will be required to win anything. That’s not terrible, but Arsene is should be doing better than that.

   Exactly.

   Unfortunately for AG, he has described “The club will be fine” at times as a top 4 finish AND and times as able to win a major trophy. Sorry, can’t have it both ways and time to pick one or the other mate.

   And that is where “astute” Arsenal fans are skeptical and want Wenger and the board to look them in the eye and tell them if they plan on Arsenal being a top 4 club or a club “capable” of winning the EPL or CL because currently the only person who believes the latter is AG and Wenger’s mommy..

   The fans are saying to Wenger/Board “Don’t piss on my leg and tell me that it’s raining!”

5. Alberta Gooner July 11th, 2012 3:08 pm :

   @gorn

   Holy smokes, that’s a very long response and you’ve made some very fair points. To clarify, I wasn’t trying to attack you or put words in your mouth. I was trying to address why I disagreed with you about RvP’s stated motives — as crafted by Kees Vos and whatever mercenary pen they hired from Hill & Knowlton — for leaving Holloway Road Properties. Definitely not trying to put words in your mouth.

   In fact, I read an excellent article by Zach Slaton, a gooner and a math whiz, who makes exactly the same point that you did. It can be found here.

   http://www.7amkickoff.com/2012/how-much-money-would-it-take-to-bring-arsenal-level-with-the-big-spenders/

   The excecutive summary it would take 120m under Slaton’s model to give L’Arse an equal shot at the league with the three big spending clubs. And this is because they have Wenger. Without him (because the club historically punches about 17 points above its financial weight with Le Prof at the helm), they would need to invest an additional 215m into the squad.

   There’s a couple of key points one point not addressed by Zach, yourself, Kees Vos and RvP about Arsenal’s transfer spending and ambition. Specifically, it’s the 390m spent on building a stadium that tied Wenger’s hands for several years in the transfer market. With the debt going down rapidly and the revenues increasing, those restrictions are being eased. So it’s a little unfair to accuse Wenger of repeating the same mistake over and over again because the club’s financial circumstances have changed in the past decade.

   The second point is people continue to equate tranfer fees with value on the pitch. I’ve pointed out the folly of this in the past. At the start of last season, I told people that Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain would be more valuable by the start of the season (or sooner) than Stewart Downing or Ashley Young. Maybe I’m viewing it through gooner-tinged googles, but I think you’d be hard pressed to find many LFC or MUFC supporters who wouldn’t snap off Wenger’s wrist if he offered to swap AOC for either one.

   That’s not to say he hasn’t had some stinkers in the market but you only have to look at your own club to see players whose values have far exceeded what Rafa paid for them (Skrtel, Lucas Leiva, Daniel Agger, Pepe Reina).

   I would love to see Wenger pull the trigger on a big deal to bring in Eden Hazard or Mario Goetzke but I admire his willingness to pay less than half on a homegrown talent and develop him. Will AOC be as good as Hazard? I’ll guess we’ll find out. Hazard claimed Gervinho is the best player he’s ever played with and it is taking some time for the Ivorian to settle into the Premier League. I also think it’s harsh to judge Arteta as an 8m player because his value for the club last year in terms of his performances was a good deal higher IMHO.

   I also don’t see today’s model as all that much different than what Wenger did with the Invincibles. He had some mid-level buys (Lauren cost 7.2m, Ljungberg 3m, Pires 6m) with bargains (Kolo Toure 165k, Vieira 3.5m and Big Sol was bought on a free though his weekly wage packet was about 100k) and homegrowns (Ashley Cole). The only really eye-popping fees I recall were TH14 (11m) and Wiltord (13m) but they weren’t remotely close to rivalling the biggest fees of that time. In the same summer that Arsenal broke its club record to bring in Wiltord from Bordeaux, Figo moved to Franco FC for 37m while Lazio paid 35.5 for Hernan Crespo. So speaking to your point, lots were not worth more than Poldi or Giroud, even in today’s dollars. I sure as hell hope both produce more than Wiltord or Franny Jeffers, our 8m “fox in the box.”

   One final observation. Arsenal has had several opportunities to win silverware, notably in 2007/08, when we finished four points behind the Rent Boyz in the league And RvP made a grand total of 13 starts and two substitute appearances in that campaign so it’s interesting he’s chosen to cite the club’s lack of silverware when his issues with injuries have contributed greatly to the current barren run.

   I’d like to address a couple points directly.

   “No one ever said Arsene is dumb. He has been able to hold onto most of his best players until 27-28 when the tread starts to wear on his players, and rarely keeps a player after 30. This is well known. But that really isn’t the point: can you say with certainty that NONE of those players Wenger shuffled off/let go due to wages would have kept L’Arse stronger by STAYING? Cuz that’s a different kettle of fish, my friend.”

   This is a fair point and one I hadn’t considered.

   “Right, but is there no middle ground? Is there no scenario where buying a STUD makes sense? I think there is, The Voyeur clearly thinks there’s not. And that’s the rub, that’s my frustration and where the doubt comes from.”

   I wonder if he’s ever been outbid for a stud because we know he’s shot bids for the likes of Reina, Phil Jones, Chris Smalling as well as making enquiries about Hazard, Goetzke etc. If he consistently comes up short, I guess the parismony charges would stick. But he did outbid other clubs for the Ox and Aaron Ramsey. That gives me some hope. So, too, did the reports about a bid for Yann M’Vila, who is a player that has interested plenty of top clubs. Would a 17m pound fee for a DM would qualify as a stud signing in your books?

   “What were those purchases worth in today’s dollars, Will? More than an £8m Arteta? £10m Verm? I bet lots were more than £12m Poddy.”

   I gave you the figures for them but didn’t adjust for inflation. I’d suggest most were similar or lower with the exceptions being Henry, Wiltord and (long sigh) Franny Jeffers. The outlier is Big Sol, obviously as 100k week would probably be worth around 170k in today’s pounds. I’d like to think he’d look at that if a player of similar quality was available on a free but I doubt any club who saw their player wind down his club would be as stupid as Spudz and let him test the market. lol

   “It’s not merely ‘injuries’, it’s some horrific ones to their most important players. The reason I know The Voyeur is still a geni0us is because there’s few men who could’ve attained the results AFC has given what’s happened the last 3 years or whatever. But, as you say, it also highlights a lack of top-end talent in the squad, which was the sole point of my first post. I think. \c:”

   I don’t know if it’s top-end talent or the fact that the squad wasn’t deep enough to handle it without supplementing it with kids. When you look at the teamsheet of the 8-2 debacle at OT, it was like fielding a bloody reserves team against the defending champions. What gives me a little more hope for this season is if you look at our preferred 4-3-3 formation, we’ve got reasonable depth. What we need is for players who’ve been constantly hobbled to finally play a full season, as RvP did. Here’s an XI with stand-ins Szczesny (Fabianski), Sagna (Jenkinson) Verminator (Mertesacker), Koscielny (Djourou), Gibbs (Santos), Song (Coquelin), Arteta (Wilshere), Ramsey (Rosicky), Poldi (Gervinho), Giroud (????), Walcott (the Ox). Now we’ll obviously get injuries, players will lose form and the ACN will likely take out Song and Gervinho for a month, but the squad depth shouldn’t be an issue unless we have some freakishly horrible luck as we did last year when all four recognized fullbacks were out injured for an extended period.

   “Of course, if by fine you mean solvent and competitive on 3 fronts. ATM, it looks like a lot of luck (or a philosophical change) will be required to win anything. That’s not terrible, but Arsene is should be doing better than that.”

   Just looking at that squad, I’d like to see us add a couple of players but I think that will depend on how quickly Wenger can clear the decks of Vela, Bendtner, AA etc. But after all the wailing and gnashing of teeth with a horrific start to last year, we finished third in the league. And based on the other contenders for that spot, I don’t see us finishing lower than that in the league. The Rent Boyz are going through a major overhaul and it will be interesting to see how RdM manages that. Spurs are going to have to buy to sell, Newcastle are concentrating on trying to keep what they have and LFC is going through a major transition on and off the pitch with a new manager embarking on a massive overhaul with limited funds at his disposal and the ownership group trying to redevelop Anfield. If anything, I’d wager Arsenal is more likely to close the gap with the greater Salford outfits this year than be overhauled by any of those clubs, with or without RvP. The one cavaet is the Rent Boyz are not done spending just yet but I still like our chances.

6. Alberta Gooner July 11th, 2012 3:26 pm :

   @SL

   “Unfortunately for AG, he has described “The club will be fine” at times as a top 4 finish AND and times as able to win a major trophy. Sorry, can’t have it both ways and time to pick one or the other mate.”

   So while we were building a stadium, you wanted Wenger to spend money that he didn’t have to bring in players that would have curtailed the development of among others, Cesc, RvP and Nasri. That’s one hell of a business model. You should put in to run Rangers.

   “And that is where “astute” Arsenal fans are skeptical and want Wenger and the board to look them in the eye and tell them if they plan on Arsenal being a top 4 club or a club “capable” of winning the EPL or CL because currently the only person who believes the latter is AG and Wenger’s mommy.”

   Um, that would be people not person. And it’s interesting that you and the “astute” Arsenal supporters — the ones who don’t acknowledge the financial impact of building a new stadium as well as dismiss Lukas Podolski and Olivier Giroud as second raters (oh and moaned about Arsene signing another kid in the Ox last summer) — all predicted we’d crash out of the CL places when Cesc and Samir left last summer. At least you are consistent. Nice to see you’ve punted this season before the summer transfer window has closed, too.

   “The fans are saying to Wenger/Board “Don’t piss on my leg and tell me that it’s raining!””

   Ah, how cruelly those fans are mistreated, like DIckensian orphans or John Terry’s mistresses. And all because Wenger wouldn’t overpay for mediocre transfer targets mooted by a group of whiny, self-entitled cluetards. No wonder we’re mocked and pitied by supporters of every other football club in Christendom.

7. disturbance July 13th, 2012 12:41 pm :

   SL-Why did you change your name on Bobby’s blog?

8. Soccerlogical July 13th, 2012 2:32 pm :

   Dist – Bobby’s pet IT guy wouldn’t let me post because I was calling out all of AG’s “In Wenger We Trust” comments and hurting his feelings.

   *But for some reason, AG’s and John Bladen’s derogatory responses towards myself and a few others are ok…. oh well!

9. disturbance July 13th, 2012 3:25 pm :

   Ah, I see. I don’t think his feelings are hurt, he’s just frustrated saying the same things over and over. While I don’t agree with your take on Arsenal because Arsenal have had sustained success for quite some time(trophies aren’t always the barometer) I do see that you’re upset because you feel all your best players are leaving because they are name players. I was upset when Liverpool sold Owen, he was my favorite player at the time, but with Rafa I learned a lot about the game in terms of how different tactics and how different countries can bring different things to the game.

   In any case, I think Arsene has been a God-send to Arsenal because when he does eventually leave, he will have left a solid foundation for the next person to build on and create an empire if Arsene doesn’t do it first.

   If you guys want something to laugh at, this is the funniest look-a-like I’ve seen on F365 in a while:

   http://www.football365.com/lookalikes/7801154

10. Alberta Gooner July 13th, 2012 7:15 pm :

    Travelling today for the playoff round of our league.

    @SL

    lol — The only thing Bobby and I have ever discussed is whether I’d contribute to his site when it goes through a redesign. Your name has never come up in any of our conversations. Perhaps you pissed off the great man himself – you’d have to ask him but I get the sense that you and Roberto rank high on his shit list for reasons obvious to the rest of us.

    You’ll note that I’ve never bothered trying to censor or shut you down here. And you’ve never “hurt my feelings.” You’ve amused me immensely but Arsenal’s performance on the pitch has frustrated me a good deal more than anything you’ve ever posted.

    @disturbance

    Thanks for the hilarious link and, yeah, you pretty much got my feelings about the Chicken Littles spot on.

    Borini is done and is apparently Kuyt’s replacement. Judging by the pissing and moaning from Roma supporters on Football Italia, it looks like your lot have got yourselves one hell of a good player.

    Sorry to everybody as I wanted to write an amusing commentary about how the law courts have completely screwed over the FA. If they don’t suspend Terry for at least eight games, you can bet there will be plenty of screaming from FSG and rightly so. The verdict in the courts has to meet a much greater burden of proof. Terry admitted to the same thing that Suarez did.

11. gooner rob July 13th, 2012 9:08 pm :

    this guy is always a good read.
    http://arseblog.com/2012/07/sheik-rattle-and-roll/

12. Alberta Gooner July 14th, 2012 1:03 am :

    @gooner rob

    Arseblog is essential reading for me — love the whole Dallas metaphor he uses to frame the issue of petro dollars in football.

13. gooner rob July 14th, 2012 3:21 am :

    absofuuckinlutely AG. i always read the Arseblog. I just thoght he nailed this one.

    For those Arsenal followers who still day in and day out argue that AFC aren’t being run up to your all knowing
    criterea, well you don’t have a didgeridoo.

14. gorn July 15th, 2012 12:47 am :

    Well, 67 hours, 6 hours of sleep, and 3 meals later, I’m starting to breathe again. Thanks for asking…. |c:

    I reject that 365 article as pointless. I mean, as if players don’t drop off the face of the earth every day in every sport. Danny Wilson cost £2m, but he was 18 at the time. FFS, is 365 becoming what they hate, now? A rag that cannye wait to throw dirt on young players for a few shekels? Boo-urns.

    AG:
    First, as a goodwill gesture, here’s a once-in-a lifetime link. (c;

    “The excecutive summary it would take 120m under Slaton’s model to give L’Arse an equal shot at the league with the three big spending clubs. “
    Oh, I don’t think it’s that bad. I give Wenger more credit than that. I think he could get AFC in there with, oh, £70m or so. 3 starting studs would revolutionize the squad, for example. He could do that and have another good squad player or 2 for £70m, IMO. Not that AFC needs that much. Well, mebbe with Sagna hosed..?

    But one point I want to get out in front here is that I’m throwing the £18-27m figure around because The Voyeur and his network are good enough to be getting 35m players when they’re only going to command 24m. It’s about a willingness to get players @ 23-27 who can impact the entire squad more than just a transfer figure. He has to realize that there will be players you don’t make a profit on if you want to win everything at the highest level. MCFC and Chav$ have taken this to an absurd level, so it obviously makes it harder, but then they’re not as smart as Le Prof, are they? (c:

    “”the 390m spent on building a stadium that tied Wenger’s hands for several years in the transfer market… So it’s a little unfair to accuse Wenger of repeating the same mistake over and over again because the club’s financial circumstances have changed in the past decade.”
    This seems like a moving goalpost to me, so I didn’t address it. Plus, AW has shipped enough money in the market, plus CL, plus good scouting, to have had surplus enough to buy the talent I’m talking about, just like Rafa managed.

    Anyway, firstly, Gazidis (or whomever) has never admitted publicly (to my knowledge) that The Voyeur was without money to spend, and in fact has gone to great lengths for, what, 4 seasons now, to say that there’s plenty of money for AW to buy players (or mebbe that “Arsene has the resources to get whichever player he wishes” sounds better). My suggestion was to spend that yearly surplus on one great player a year. IIRC, Wenger chose to spend very little, and mostly on yer Oxs or yer Chamakh’s, until this summer (unless Verm is considered a big buy; I think of him more as a shrewd Voyeur classic, myself, like Pires; when they’re first bought, ppl go “Who? How much?” and 12 months later it’s facepalming and excuses for supporters why they didn’t get them).

    This is the cycle that has developed; he buys super smart with kids, but because he doesn’t supplement with the proper quality in-their-prime players, the youngins grow up and wanna leave. (Again, this isn’t specifically about keeping RvP but addressing the cycle that has happened over the past 5 years or whatever). So just when the club is about to hit Wenger’s projection, one or more of his cogs bails. That’s the mistake that’s being repeated, IMvhO. It’s a product of money, but it’s an error in philosophy/club building.

    “The second point is people continue to equate tranfer fees with value on the pitch.”
    Hopefully I addressed this today, as it seems I did not adequately cover this reasonable criticism originally.

    “[Wenger] did outbid other clubs for the Ox and Aaron Ramsey.”
    Yes, this is where he’s virtually without peer, and I hope I covered this.

    “Would a 17m pound fee for a DM would qualify as a stud signing in your books?”
    I was thinking more along the lines of creative playmaker (think Silva would look good in puke yellow with this squad?) or classy stalwart type (Verm/Agger/Rio/Kompany), as they tend to cost the most money no matter how smart you are. DM is a spot where I think a good manager can create one, a la Lucas or Song. But I suppose if M’Vila would come in and be the 2nd coming of Mascherano (and gaud forbid if he can pass…), that would mean Song could go farther up the park and create a double-return, or they could play alongside each other and let AFC crush out a 3-4-3-1 with 2 “DM”s that can run, tackle, pass and get into the box? Then, yeah, that’d be worth at least £17m. (c:

    “”I don’t know if it’s top-end talent or the fact that the squad wasn’t deep enough to handle it without supplementing it with kids.”
    Po-tay-to, po-tat-to. The undeniable point is that another stud or 2 would cause players to be put into spots where they’d be overqualified, rather than asked to take roles/responsibilities they are not capable of (short term or long) in high pressure situations like Old Toilet or CL matches. It’s about eliminating mediocrity in the squad, and given AFCs players, it seems mostly not an issue of talent per-se but of maturity/comfort/role.

    “the squad depth shouldn’t be an issue unless we have some freakishly horrible luck as we did last year when all four recognized fullbacks were out injured for an extended period. “
    And this is another… blind spot you and The Voyeur seem to have perennially, IMvhO. Your default position should be that you WILL get bad luck, and be prepared for it; it’s been the M.O. @ the Emirates for years now. And what’s the downside of having too much talent, BTW? If they’re getting paid and AFC is winning, how grumpy do you think they’ll get? It’s a lot easier to move a player who’s surplus to requirements while the club is winning (especially when you are sensible about your spend as Wenger is) than to sign someone when you are depleted and desperate to save a season.

    “If anything, I’d wager Arsenal is more likely to close the gap with the greater Salford outfits this year than be overhauled by any of those clubs, with or without RvP.”
    Ok, we can quibble about where in the top 5 they’ll finish, but my point was that there’s no danger of them dropping.

    The important point is that AFCs position, as you stated it yourself, is as much or more about the state of the PL than the actual strength of their squad; don’t forget, that awful start y’all had didn’t get erased until Spuds shit the bed in April. Had Chav$ not gone full-retard with their squad & management, *and* ManUre having by EVERY account a ‘poor’ season with a laundry list of injuries themselves, *and* THS have a media circus themselves, *and* LFC getting derailed by substandard managing, performances, and diabolical witch hunt on their best player, Wenger is publicly praising his players for getting them into Europa League “despite all the unfortunate circumstances”. The situation isn’t nearly as bad as the doomsayers would have us believe, but it’s not like AFC is freerolling CL every year, and it’s just a lottery between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, either.

    I like a lot of the young players AFC has brought together. I think there are players there who actually being held back from becoming the players they can be because of poor squad planning for potential injuries (Song, Verm, Djourou; Wilkenson, Ox, and Coq are perilously close to suffering this too). I’m encouraged from what I hear about Giroud, and that I’ve seen from Podi (I was crying for Rafa to buy him 4 years ago…) that they will make the club deeper and more talented. I just think that ya cannye win at these stakes without bringing in some top-end finished articles.

    It’s like baseball season in July every year; if you are a serious contender, you need to make a push by bringing in someone who will help push your ball club over the top. Does it always work? No. Do many teams win without making any big deals? No. At least in footie, all it costs you is some money – a renewable resource.

    And breathe. I’m spent. (c:

    PS: Just re-read your comment:
    “I doubt any club who saw their player wind down his club would be as stupid as Spudz and let him test the market. lol”
    If you meant this as a jab at AFC over RvP, well, that was fucking brilliant.

15. Alberta Gooner July 15th, 2012 4:08 pm :

    @gorn

    Loved that link! lol

    “I think he could get AFC in there with, oh, £70m or so. 3 starting studs would revolutionize the squad, for example. He could do that and have another good squad player or 2 for £70m, IMO. Not that AFC needs that much. Well, mebbe with Sagna hosed..?”

    I agree with you that Wenger is now in the position where he could go out and buy large. I’d also suggest he’s done an excellent job of turning lower priced buys into 18-27m players (see Anelka, Overmars, Vieira, Henry, Adebayor, Nasri and Cesc). The excellent transfermarkt.co.uk site lists RvP, Alex Song and Jack Wilshere in that range so I get less hung up about what he pays versus the value produced by his buys on the pitch.

    “But one point I want to get out in front here is that I’m throwing the £18-27m figure around because The Voyeur and his network are good enough to be getting 35m players when they’re only going to command 24m. It’s about a willingness to get players @ 23-27 who can impact the entire squad more than just a transfer figure. He has to realize that there will be players you don’t make a profit on if you want to win everything at the highest level. MCFC and Chav$ have taken this to an absurd level, so it obviously makes it harder, but then they’re not as smart as Le Prof, are they? (c:”

    Yeah, and one club has gone to a self-financed model that conforms with FFP regulations. The other two — not so much. But I agree this doesn’t seem to impress the leading members of his current squad enough to hold them in Islington.

    Again, we don’t know what he has offered for various players. There have been bids for Reina, Chris Smalling and Phil Jones while his interest in both Hazard and Goetzke was very public. In Goetzke’s case, there was no interest in moving while Hazard’s salary demands put off the Massive and Beetface so I’m not going to begrudge Wenger coming up short. What I will say is sometimes his zeal to extract a bargain can backfire. He just about lost the Ox to United when his first offer was a ridiculously low 2m. Only the father’s insistence that AOC move to Arsenal prevented his parismony from losing the kid to Beetface. And I shudder to think of what might have happened. Happily he’s ours and fingers crossed he fulfills his potential. Because then we might not be kicking ourselves too hard for losing out on Hazard or missing on Goetzke.

    “This seems like a moving goalpost to me, so I didn’t address it. Plus, AW has shipped enough money in the market, plus CL, plus good scouting, to have had surplus enough to buy the talent I’m talking about, just like Rafa managed.”

    Building a new stadium had an impact on the club’s transfer dealings. That’s not moving goalposts — it’s a simple fact. Since 1999/2000, when the club received planning permission on Ashburton Grove, our total transfer spend according to Transfrmarket — adjusted for inflation — is 24.07m pounds prior to the start of this summer’s window — or about 1.85m per year. Now some of that is buyers paying ridiculously over the odds, which has helped Wenger fund purchases (Anelka’s sale to Franco FC basically funded the purchases of Henry, Wiltord and Gio von Bronkhorst). Anyway, that’s roughly what Wenger has spent on Poldi and Giroud so far this summer. So yeah, I think the restraints have eased and Wenger is moving more aggressively based on what he has in the bank account.

    Based on some of the concerns by the AST over ticket pricing, I think the board and Gazidis have been vocal about his ability to spend based on those concerns to shield themselves from heat over the club’s inability to win silverware and losing star players. But Wenger has basically has self-funded his transfer dealings, allowing the club to plough its operating profits into financing a new stadium that is now well on its way to being paid off.

    Wenger DOES get a little hung up over the value but I think there’s other issues that have prevented him from pulling the trigger for some players (lifestyle off the pitch, etc.) He is very particular about purchasing a specific technical and athletic profile. Ironically, his younger, cheaper buys turn out better than some of his mature ones (Arshavin and Rosicky are examples for different reasons about this). But if he thought he could bring a Neymar to the Emirates, he’d try to do it (and has publicly stated this). The reality of the situation is Catalan Aetthes and Franco FC can pay more for the same targets thanks to being able to negotiate their own television deals and, in the case of Perez’s mob, get friendly government-influenced credit terms to purchase players as well as a sweetheart deal to clear the debt by selling their training ground for a highly inflated price. Those routes will now be closed with the austerity clampdown in Spain. Those clubs will no longer be able to barter their way out of trouble because Spanish banks and the Spanish government are perilously close to the brink.

    “I was thinking more along the lines of creative playmaker (think Silva would look good in puke yellow with this squad?) or classy stalwart type (Verm/Agger/Rio/Kompany), as they tend to cost the most money no matter how smart you are. DM is a spot where I think a good manager can create one, a la Lucas or Song. But I suppose if M’Vila would come in and be the 2nd coming of Mascherano (and gaud forbid if he can pass…), that would mean Song could go farther up the park and create a double-return, or they could play alongside each other and let AFC crush out a 3-4-3-1 with 2 “DM”s that can run, tackle, pass and get into the box? Then, yeah, that’d be worth at least £17m. (c:”

    Wenger thought he had his Silva with Jose Antonio Reyes and it didn’t work out, unfortunately. And yeah, M’Vila CAN definitely distribute the ball so he’s better than Mascherano. Though so was Lucas Leiva. How much did he cost again?

    Back to your point, yeah, Wenger and everybody else appears to have missed the boat on Kompany and there’s a hesitation to push the boat out on to bring in top talent that would act as a big neon “AMBITION” sign to the rest of the squad and supporters. If RvP goes this summer, he needs to make a statement. M’Vila would be a start. A world-class attacking midfielder would be another. Turn up at Dortmund and wave 30m at them. Or do the same to Santos for Neymar and force the Spanish duopoly to put up or shut up. And with Sagna apparently out until November, a proper attacking fullback. No, not Carl Jenkinson or Johan Djourou, either. Nicolas N’Koulou, please, or feel out Quatar FC for Mamadou Sakho. Wenger has apparently got 50m or so available plus whatever he gets for RvP IF he chooses to sell him.

    “Ok, we can quibble about where in the top 5 they’ll finish, but my point was that there’s no danger of them dropping.”

    No, I said they’ll be top three again. Big difference between that and fifth.

    “The important point is that AFCs position, as you stated it yourself, is as much or more about the state of the PL than the actual strength of their squad; don’t forget, that awful start y’all had didn’t get erased until Spuds shit the bed in April. Had Chav$ not gone full-retard with their squad & management, *and* ManUre having by EVERY account a ‘poor’ season with a laundry list of injuries themselves, *and* THS have a media circus themselves, *and* LFC getting derailed by substandard managing, performances, and diabolical witch hunt on their best player, Wenger is publicly praising his players for getting them into Europa League “despite all the unfortunate circumstances”. The situation isn’t nearly as bad as the doomsayers would have us believe, but it’s not like AFC is freerolling CL every year, and it’s just a lottery between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, either.”

    The lesser lights were always destined to have a bad spell. But they didn’t do too badly with injuries last season. Let’s see them maintain that level without Modric, who is almost certainly gone.

    I’d argue the Rent Boyz were going through a natural transition from the omelet maker’s stalwarts to the next generation but it’s going to be interesting to see how they get along without Drogba this year. They’ve got a decent core led by Mata, Ramires and others, but it will be interesting to see how Lampard reacts to be eased out of the squad. He wasn’t particularly graceful last year and it caused all kinds of internal problems.

    LFC isn’t as bad as they were last season but they weren’t a Champions League contending squad, either and will be going through a difficult transition on their own. In the past three years, they’ve finished eighth, sixth and seventh in the league. Do you really think they’ll overhaul L’Arse, even without RvP when they didn’t do it last year, when we lost Cesc and Nasri? I hope people are patient with Rodgers because it appears he’ll have to reshape the squad working under the same fiscal constraints that Wenger did while FSG look at stadium options. My sense is they will challenge Spurs and the bar codes for fifth this year.

    “And this is another… blind spot you and The Voyeur seem to have perennially, IMvhO. Your default position should be that you WILL get bad luck, and be prepared for it; it’s been the M.O. @ the Emirates for years now. And what’s the downside of having too much talent, BTW? If they’re getting paid and AFC is winning, how grumpy do you think they’ll get? It’s a lot easier to move a player who’s surplus to requirements while the club is winning (especially when you are sensible about your spend as Wenger is) than to sign someone when you are depleted and desperate to save a season.”

    Agreed although losing all four recognized fullbacks at once is generally something that you simply cannot account for. But, yeah, we’ve been thin and relied on kids or players with chronic injury histories for far too long (Diaby, Rosicky). Wenger’s loyalty to them is admirable but it has tied his hands in terms of naming his squad for various competitions.

    “If you meant this as a jab at AFC over RvP, well, that was fucking brilliant.”

    Big Sol was entering his prime when he made the move across north London and he helped us win two league titles. RvP is at a different stage of his career with some significant risks with injuries. It’s basically a three-year investment versus eight years. And if RvP goes to the Massive or Agnelli FC, it isn’t the same as crossing the divide. It’s not like he’s helping them win titles they already haven’t bought already. Plus we’re in the enviable position, thanks to the new stadium that Spurs are still trying to find a way to finance, of being able to hold him to his contract and still have 50m to spend in the market to buy a replacement as opposed to what Spurs did with Big Sol back in 2001, which was pray that he’d either re-sign with them or accept what was offered to him by FC Hollywood, AC Berlusconi and a couple of the other Continental bidders.

    I’m actually pretty optimistic this season whether RvP stays or goes. The only potential flies in the ointment are Catalan Aesthes are rumoured to be sniffing around Koscielny (which is one reason Wenger is publicly talking about a five-year deal for him) and Darren Dein making outrageous demands on Alex Song’s deal.

16. everwonthetreble July 15th, 2012 9:42 pm :

    Certainly one of the best piss takes we’ll read this summer… http://www.football365.com/news/21554/7902455/Charlie-Adam-Claims-Table-Does-Lie-Actually

    AG…you’re welcome, mate.
    —

    I’ll believe it when I see it from Arsenal. Until then its all heresy. However, for the first time in quite a while I’m expecting something positive from Arsenal this upcoming season. I get the sense that what they went through last year and how they finished had more to do with them battling rather than the teams above them shitting it.

17. Alberta Gooner July 16th, 2012 12:31 am :

    @ewtt

    “I’ll believe it when I see it from Arsenal. Until then its all heresy. However, for the first time in quite a while I’m expecting something positive from Arsenal this upcoming season. I get the sense that what they went through last year and how they finished had more to do with them battling rather than the teams above them shitting it.”

    Feel free to call me crazy, but I expect Holloway Road Properties to be battling both greater Salford outfits this season for the league. I don’t know if we’ll win it, mind you, but I would expect us to be within touching distance of the top. Of course, I’m expecting Wilshere to return, the Ox to grow and Wenger to sign at least one — and maybe two — top-notch midfielders as well as hold on to Koscielny. Asking for all of those things is a lot but I’m one hell of a lot more positive about this season for the first time in a few seasons, primarily based on what is coming into the squad.

18. everwonthetreble July 16th, 2012 1:06 pm :

    AG:

    You’re not crazy at all. Generally speaking, Arsenal collapse as a result of their injuries during the season. Last year, however, they continued on in spite of them. I happen to think that will bode well for them for this upcoming season. Without question they’ll be in the top three.

    While I agree with most that they need a bit more depth with a quality player or two to be brought in, I’ve stated previously that I would like to see a slight variation in their play. I think the attention to detail defensively isn’t consistent enough for Arsenal and last year was one of their worst efforts. Injuries didn’t help, but their performances defensively weren’t far off from past years. Could another CB help? Maybe. But if that CB is allowed to roam too far up the pitch as Vermaelen so often does then I don’t see the point in buying one.

    The bottom line is that they’re balanced enough to make the CL year after year. That’s an undeniable fact. In order to challenge for the title, however, they’ll have to be more “ambitious” in improving their defensive displays not just bringing in players. Adams might not agree, but the table doesn’t lie in this regard. This is really the only problem I have with what Arsenal has done in recent years. I like the CBs he’s chosen but he’s got to hold them more accountable for the errors that they continue to make. As a unit, Arsenal move well together in attack but look out of place when it comes to defending. A large part of that is on Wenger. Again, its not all the time, but its just enough to keep them a pretty good distance from challenging or winning the title.

19. disturbance July 16th, 2012 5:58 pm :

    I have no problem with what Adams said regarding the table lying. In 2008-09 Liverpool DOMINATED the other big four and lost the title to United because of their “ability” to win games against the likes of Wigan and Boro. Hardly “Champion” material. The table doesn’t always tell the truth but it can make for interesting conversation. Even if United had won the league, I doubt many would truly believe in their hearts that they could beat City if there were a playoff or anything.

    City has a better squad because they paid for it. End of story.

    What I do have a problem with is saying that Liverpool were unlucky. Just because you hit a post doesn’t make you unlucky. Just because another scores a goal, doesn’t make them lucky. I have a lot of disdain for those poor excuses. Excuses you hear too many Kopites repeating, which also makes us the stick of bad jokes.

    In any case, I’m raring for the season to come around. I really think AA and Lucas are going to form a great partnership that’s going to allow Gerrard to become a dominant force for a couple more years up top. Or at least I’m hoping…

20. Alberta Gooner July 16th, 2012 6:01 pm :

    @ewtt

    “The bottom line is that they’re balanced enough to make the CL year after year. That’s an undeniable fact. In order to challenge for the title, however, they’ll have to be more “ambitious” in improving their defensive displays not just bringing in players. Adams might not agree, but the table doesn’t lie in this regard. This is really the only problem I have with what Arsenal has done in recent years. I like the CBs he’s chosen but he’s got to hold them more accountable for the errors that they continue to make. As a unit, Arsenal move well together in attack but look out of place when it comes to defending. A large part of that is on Wenger. Again, its not all the time, but its just enough to keep them a pretty good distance from challenging or winning the title.”

    A lot of gooners believe Steve Bould’s appointment as Pat Rice’s replacement will see some of the frailities ironed out. There is more strength in depth along the back four and hopefully we’ll get a chance to see crock-a-lots such as Gibbs and Vermaelen get an extended injury-free runs. I still think we need to start the season with more than just Carl Jenkinson at right back, though.

    Sorry about the delay in providing a new post — I’m travelling right now and visiting with family. I’ll have something up by Wednesday morning.

21. everwonthetreble July 16th, 2012 9:12 pm :

    The only thing the table emphasizes is how consistently a team wins. However a team sets out to accomplish that is up to them which is the beauty of the table format. The bottom line is just very simply to win at a constant rate over 38 matches which I think people often forget. Its not a small number of matches that determine a winner or loser, relegation or a CL spot. Every team has to show a patter of consistency in regards to winning. If at any point they begin to slip, they’ll be placed appropriately within the structure of the table.

    City didn’t win the title because they bought it. I’m all for being disrespectful to rivals but that’s a flat out lie. They showed a consistent pattern of winning in the table. They may have bought the ability to finally COMPETE with the best teams but that’s entirely different than actually winning. United did very well last season but City did even better and that’s why they won. Do you see a column that says “Richest Club in the World” in the table? How about, “Most Possession,” or “Dominated the Top Four?” Of course not, and its because the table, thankfully, doesn’t take any of that into consideration. The table rewards only winning not how a team wins and thus it gives a very clear indication as to why teams are placed in their relative positions once the season finishes.

    Hope my tone doesn’t come across as argumentative. Just trying to state my opinion (c;
    —

    What is the deal with Lucas? I haven’t heard a peep from the lad during his recovery. How’s he progressing? What are your thoughts on Borini? I don’t think he’ll be enough but I’m sure he’ll be better than Carrol given what I’ve seen of him. You’re really excited for AA? He struggled in Milan with yet another injury. What’s his status?

22. disturbance July 17th, 2012 7:24 am :

    EWTT-You don’t have to qualify yourself! Come on, we’ve discussed things with much more sensitive nature before

    For me, when they say the table doesn’t lie they are saying that the best teams always wins the championship. Not that the most consistent team always wins. And with what I described above is why I think the table CAN lie. I know it sounds like I’m belittling United but its not what I’m trying to do. I’m just trying to say the BEST team doesn’t always win and the Liverpool example is the closest thing that I’ve seen recently that goes to describing that.

    Lucas seems to be progressing finely from what I’ve read. Have you seen something that I haven’t? God I hope not.

    I don’t know enough of Borini to make any intelligent statement. If he can truly play any of the front three positions, like Suarez, that will give us some depth and give us many options which is a good thing.

    Yeah I really am excited for AA. He can control a game and if teams are focusing more on Gerrard and the front three then I”m not worried too much about AA’s injury history. I’m honestly more worried about Gerrard….shit now that I think about it Gerrard, AA and Lucas have had some serious injury issues lately. Now I am worried! Thanks a lot

23. disturbance July 17th, 2012 11:41 am :

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2012/07/16/manchester-united-tops-the-worlds-50-most-valuable-sports-teams/

    Don’t know if this was covered on Bobby’s blog or here(sorry I sometimes just jump to comments) but its funny because people are saying Arsenal have lost their “brand” power and yet they are ranked as the 10th most valuable franchise here. Thats in all of sports!

24. gorn July 18th, 2012 1:57 am :

    - L’Arse: Mebbe the lack of strength I’ve been talking about is better reflected in EWTT’s assertion about AFC’s consistent underperforming and lack of solidity in their own 3rd. Obviously Les Gauls finally had a finisher last season and that makes everything look better, but perhaps it is simply a matter of getting the back 5/6 SORTED!!, whether that’s through training, acquisitions, or position changes – so long as they maintain close-to or the same goal production. They just seem fragile to me, tho all credit, they did dig out a helluva season last year under any circumstances. I just look at them and I see flaws despite their talent and manager. Suppose that’s just me.

    - re: the table lying: I think it’s one thing to state that a club had some woeful luck (as LFC did last season) in not getting more results that should’ve had them with a much better record, and another entirely to say that the club that won didn’t deserve it. When ppl talk about the table not lying, it’s about asserting that the winning club earned it. Adam stated just past the statement EWTT focused on that MCFC deserved it, and that LFC is well short of title quality. If there’s any piss-taking, it seems to be coming from the harbinger. (c;

    - LFC changes: First of all, all this talk of Carroll has to be just about the dumbest thing Rodgers could do. The guy finally came around at the end of the season, played reasonably well by all accounts in the Euros, then BR floats it to the press that he could be ON LOAN??? W. T. F? Talk about buying high and selling low; that totally undercuts both Carroll’s confidence and his value, even if a loan makes the most sense. BRUTAL idiocy in marketing, man management, economics, and media ’savvy’.

    As for Borini, no idea, but being 21 while starting for Roma and playing for Italy @ Euro 2012 seem like ringing endorsements. If he’s Suarez-esque with more finish, y’all are in trouble….

    As for the midfield,
    - Lucas spent a lot of time in Brazil as I understand it. There has not been one iota of negativity about his recovery.

    - AA could be superlative for LFC if he’s handled right. Rafa was under pressure to play him sooner and in suboptimal situations, and that made the OPTICS of his time here worse than they were. He’ll be great if he’s given the chance and not physically pressed.

    - There seems to be some question where Gerrard will play. I’ve seen a lot of Swansea, but their personnel was made different by their affordability, so there’s no comparable IMO. You can say Gylfi, but my impression is that he’s got a constant motor and very conscientious positionally as well as with the ball. Cannye really be said for SG. I suspect that LFC will be trotting out SOME lineups not that dissimilar to some of KKD’s, but called something else, of course…. Until there’s been more player changes that Rodgers wants, it’s going to be more about LFC’s philosophy of ball management that changes rather than formations or lineups.

    YMMV.

25. gorn July 18th, 2012 2:53 am :

    AG:
    “Building a new stadium had an impact on the club’s transfer dealings. That’s not moving goalposts — it’s a simple fact… [...] Based on some of the concerns by the AST over ticket pricing, I think the board and Gazidis have been vocal about his ability to spend based on those concerns to shield themselves from heat over the club’s inability to win silverware and losing star players.”
    This is pure conjecture on your part, tho Will, no matter how you slice it.

    But let’s accept your terms. So it’s a he said/he said with the board saying one thing unanimously and consistently for years, and The Voyeur… NEVER contradicting that and buying the odd high-mid range player? Sounds like a pretty simple story, to me. It’s outsiders moving the goalposts to suit their expectations, whether it’s pro-board or pro-Wenger. What makes you so sure that it isn’t “Wenger being Wenger” and that if the money had always been there, anything would be different? This is where you lose me, I don’t understand the leap.

    “Wenger DOES get a little hung up over the value”
    I think we have our early season nominee for Understatement of the Year! LOL!
    Anyway, this does seem to indicate you have mixed feelings about this issue yourself. OTOnH it’s enforced upon AW and the board/Gazidis is lying to placate the supporters; OTOH you acknowledge that AW doesn’t spend even if he can. So now we’re arguing merely about when he wasn’t spending money he wouldn’t have spent anyway vs. couldn’t? Not really my thing.

    I’m gonna let this go, my last bit: I learned a long time ago that if it looks like a canard, walks like a canard, and quacks like a canard, it’s a canard. Not a rooster, no matter how much he crows. YMMV. dc:

    The good news is that, as far as we know, AW’s parsimony hasn’t hurt L’Arse *too* much. But, as I said in my last post, a successful manager HAS to accept that a complete squad has mature players who will not command a transfer fee when their usefulness runs out in a title chasing squad. AA was a semi-failure but still put up some impressive advanced stats esp. with his limmited play time over the last year or so, and Rosicky was broken at birth but managed some classy performances (in CL in particular IIRC?). The evidence is in front of his face on his own club. The Voyeur just needs to step up to a higher quality player without the flaws that come from cheaper options. Inefficiencies are there for a reason; sometimes you gotta just by top quality at top dollar.

    “Plus we’re in the enviable position, thanks to the new stadium that Spurs are still trying to find a way to finance, of being able to hold him to his contract and still have 50m to spend in the market to buy a replacement”
    Don’t forget RvP’s not insubstantial wages! Especially if you count what AFC had allotted for him in his extension.

    But, again, money’s worthless if it’s not spent. I respect your faith in The Voyeur – it’s well-earned on just about every level, except this one. There’s no pattern to suggest he’ll spend that money.

    “No, I said they’ll be top three again. Big difference between that and fifth.”
    A sum total of 6 points over 3 spots, that’s not quibbling? I guess someone should tell Pulis that Stoke was on the brink of relegation last year, then……..

    “Do you really think [LFC]’ll overhaul L’Arse, even without RvP when they didn’t do it last year, when we lost Cesc and Nasri?”
    Ebbing tides lower all boats, AG. I made that point pretty gauddamn clear. It wasn’t an attempt to get LFC into title conversation.

    But since we’re on the subject, LFC was joint 3rd best in goals against. +0.5 more goals/game woulda put them in 4th. Given that Suarez was shitcanned for ~5 PL matches, Carroll & Kuyt were completely off the boil, and Lucas & SG were basically gone the whole season, improving from within is hardly unrealistic.

    So, yeah, I think if you can believe Wenger will spend £50m and win the title, I can believe LFC will play 4 spots better with 3 healthy “additions” (including AA) to the midfield, a 2nd full season of Suarez, and any production out of Borini/Carroll. (c:

    (Not saying I do believe it will happen, I’m trying to draw an argument)

26. shmish July 18th, 2012 4:05 am :

    @gorn
    You were flooded? Bummer in the summer, I hope you get a decent insurance claim.

    @ag
    “Here’s an XI with stand-ins Szczesny (Fabianski), Sagna (Jenkinson) Verminator (Mertesacker), Koscielny (Djourou), Gibbs (Santos), Song (Coquelin), Arteta (Wilshere), Ramsey (Rosicky), Poldi (Gervinho), Giroud (????), Walcott (the Ox). ”

    errrr…. problem (preferably said with a slavic/russian accent, it’s just that much more effective that way). I don’t want to get up at 5am to see Jenkinson and Djourou stand in at the start of the game, with Gibbs snapping his hamstring at the 35:15 mark. That would be another 8-2 loss to either Manchester team. Actually, I take that back. I don’t mind Santos at all, I think his overall affect on the club is convincingly positive. Arteta is key, not sure if Wilshere can be the man. Of the the players mentioned above, which ones have a decent chance of scoring from outside or at the edge of the box on anything other than the break? Arteta. Verminator. I don’t know about Giroud.

27. Soccerlogical July 18th, 2012 10:40 am :

    “Pretty much confirmed by Le Boss and there’s no small relief among the shareholders at Holloway Road Properties at finding a sucker buyer for the non-scoring Moroccan striker. With the Carlos Vela transfer to Real Sociedad nearly finished (bar haggling over the percentage of his sell-on fee – HRP want an eye-watering 60 per cent from any future sale) and Nicklas Bendtner in advanced negotiations with Malaga, it pretty much leaves Squillaci and Arshavin to shift (although I’m quite certain Wenger will entertain any enquiries about Park Chu Young’s availability).”

    - Chamakh proved a valuable player when he arrived and scored some impressive goals when given a proper run of games when RvP was injured. It is “myopic” to suggest he has been a failure or “non-scoring” due tho the fact he was benched as soon as RvP was fit and as Wenger never had a plan B and you can’t expect ANY striker to ride the pine for 2 seasons and play the occasional 15-20 mins and score goals… UNREALISTIC!

    *2011/2012 The guy started ONE game in the Prem!

    PS Same can be said about Wenger wasting money on a talented player like Chu Young who was bought and then given a blanket to share with Chamakh as they watched from the bench as RvP scored goals and Arsenal struggled to qualify for a CL spot and yet another uninspiring season.

28. Alberta Gooner July 18th, 2012 2:30 pm :

    @ewtt

    RE: “The only thing the table emphasizes is how consistently a team wins. However a team sets out to accomplish that is up to them which is the beauty of the table format . . .”

    No arguments from me.

29. Alberta Gooner July 18th, 2012 2:33 pm :

    @disturbance

    “I don’t know enough of Borini to make any intelligent statement. If he can truly play any of the front three positions, like Suarez, that will give us some depth and give us many options which is a good thing.”

    The Times staff — which feature several Liverpool supporters/observers who are closely plugged into the club — see him as a replacement for Dirk Kuyt.

    “Yeah I really am excited for AA. He can control a game and if teams are focusing more on Gerrard and the front three then I”m not worried too much about AA’s injury history. I’m honestly more worried about Gerrard….shit now that I think about it Gerrard, AA and Lucas have had some serious injury issues lately. Now I am worried! Thanks a lot”

    Rory Smith, who is part of that Times Anfield crew, doesn’t see a future for AA under Rodgers. Apparently, they think he’s too lightweight to play in England.

30. Alberta Gooner July 18th, 2012 2:36 pm :

    @disturbance

    Thanks for the Forbes link. I’d repost it on Bobby’s blog but my good buddy FABR04 — who claims the Arsenal “brand” has eroded under Wenger — has asked me not to respond to his posts or comment about him. He apparently doesn’t want inconvenient facts to mess up his prescription for what ails the club.

31. Alberta Gooner July 18th, 2012 2:53 pm :

    @gorn

    ” L’Arse: Mebbe the lack of strength I’ve been talking about is better reflected in EWTT’s assertion about AFC’s consistent underperforming and lack of solidity in their own 3rd. Obviously Les Gauls finally had a finisher last season and that makes everything look better, but perhaps it is simply a matter of getting the back 5/6 SORTED!!, whether that’s through training, acquisitions, or position changes – so long as they maintain close-to or the same goal production. They just seem fragile to me, tho all credit, they did dig out a helluva season last year under any circumstances. I just look at them and I see flaws despite their talent and manager. Suppose that’s just me.”

    No arguments there. If they are going to improve, they need to be more consistent at the back. But it’s interesting that despite their flaws, Arsenal have been remarkably consistent in where they finish in the league table.

    “I think it’s one thing to state that a club had some woeful luck (as LFC did last season) in not getting more results that should’ve had them with a much better record, and another entirely to say that the club that won didn’t deserve it. When ppl talk about the table not lying, it’s about asserting that the winning club earned it. Adam stated just past the statement EWTT focused on that MCFC deserved it, and that LFC is well short of title quality. If there’s any piss-taking, it seems to be coming from the harbinger. (c;”

    LFC have finished 6th, 7th and 8th in the past three seasons. Either they have been unlucky for three seasons or problems haven’t been addressed.

    “LFC changes: First of all, all this talk of Carroll has to be just about the dumbest thing Rodgers could do. The guy finally came around at the end of the season, played reasonably well by all accounts in the Euros, then BR floats it to the press that he could be ON LOAN??? W. T. F? Talk about buying high and selling low; that totally undercuts both Carroll’s confidence and his value, even if a loan makes the most sense. BRUTAL idiocy in marketing, man management, economics, and media ’savvy’.”

    Totally agreed with you on this. The only reason I could see Rodgers wanting to sell the kid is he needs funds to complete his make over the squad. Remember, FSG posted a 49.3m loss last year.

    “There seems to be some question where Gerrard will play. I’ve seen a lot of Swansea, but their personnel was made different by their affordability, so there’s no comparable IMO. You can say Gylfi, but my impression is that he’s got a constant motor and very conscientious positionally as well as with the ball. Cannye really be said for SG. I suspect that LFC will be trotting out SOME lineups not that dissimilar to some of KKD’s, but called something else, of course…. Until there’s been more player changes that Rodgers wants, it’s going to be more about LFC’s philosophy of ball management that changes rather than formations or lineups.”

    Gerrard is 32. I suspect you’ll see Rodgers employ a similar strategy that Beetface did with Scholes and Giggs in terms of saving his legs and protecting him from injury. He’s NOT a squad player but he’s also not going to have 40-plus appearances in the league and cups, either.

32. Alberta Gooner July 18th, 2012 3:43 pm :

    @gorn

    “This is pure conjecture on your part, tho Will, no matter how you slice it. But let’s accept your terms. So it’s a he said/he said with the board saying one thing unanimously and consistently for years, and The Voyeur… NEVER contradicting that and buying the odd high-mid range player? Sounds like a pretty simple story, to me. It’s outsiders moving the goalposts to suit their expectations, whether it’s pro-board or pro-Wenger. What makes you so sure that it isn’t “Wenger being Wenger” and that if the money had always been there, anything would be different? This is where you lose me, I don’t understand the leap.”

    Part of it is a theory. Part of it is not. Building a 391-pound stadium had an impact on Arsenal’s transfer dealings as much as the Glazers’ LBO has tied Beetface’s hands in the market.

    As far as board using Wenger as a shield to take the heat from supporters who recognized what he has done for the club, yeah, that’s a theory. And it’s one supported by a fellow named David Dein. Now Dein obviously has an axe to grind with the current board but it makes sense when you look at the club’s financials and the “cash on hand” total over the years. So it’s also a theory supported by some numbers.

    Nobody is arguing Wenger has acted frugally. We’re only arguing about the why. I’m suggesting there’s some larger reasons and provided some facts as to why. You seem offended by this. I’ve made gentle fun of the conventional wisdom that has sprung up on Fleet Street and with some of our “supporters” about this conclusion that Wenger is a pinch-lipped tightwad because it’s his nature rather than circumstance, as I’ve addressed in previous answers and will in my next answer.

    “I think we have our early season nominee for Understatement of the Year! LOL! Anyway, this does seem to indicate you have mixed feelings about this issue yourself. OTOnH it’s enforced upon AW and the board/Gazidis is lying to placate the supporters; OTOH you acknowledge that AW doesn’t spend even if he can. So now we’re arguing merely about when he wasn’t spending money he wouldn’t have spent anyway vs. couldn’t? Not really my thing.”

    A couple of points. We don’t know about the bids he’s made for players and been knocked back. We’ve heard from LFC that he bid for Reina. We heard from Factory Farm FC that he went into for Phil Jones. Everton screamed that he lowballed them for Jagielka. Inter matched his bid for Ricky Alvarez and the player chose to go to Italy. Owen Coyle bitched about his bid for Gary Cahill. He has shown willingness to bid for good players. I’m sure there are others, too. What we don’t know is whether he came in too late, too low or there were other factors that caused the player to go elsewhere. Some agents hate his guts and that complicates things. Other players prefer to play in England and Spain. Some some of it might be Wenger’s parismony issue but that’s not the only thing at play.

    “I’m gonna let this go, my last bit: I learned a long time ago that if it looks like a canard, walks like a canard, and quacks like a canard, it’s a canard. Not a rooster, no matter how much he crows. YMMV. dc:”

    Hopefully I’ve addressed this point in the previous post.

    “The good news is that, as far as we know, AW’s parsimony hasn’t hurt L’Arse *too* much. But, as I said in my last post, a successful manager HAS to accept that a complete squad has mature players who will not command a transfer fee when their usefulness runs out in a title chasing squad. AA was a semi-failure but still put up some impressive advanced stats esp. with his limmited play time over the last year or so, and Rosicky was broken at birth but managed some classy performances (in CL in particular IIRC?). The evidence is in front of his face on his own club. The Voyeur just needs to step up to a higher quality player without the flaws that come from cheaper options. Inefficiencies are there for a reason; sometimes you gotta just by top quality at top dollar.”

    Perhaps he will. But you need to accept a large transfer fee doesn’t guarantee a better performance. You don’t need to go beyond LFC’s buys last summer to acknowledge this point. Who would you rather have — the 12m Ox or 20m Downing? That’s a honest question rather than a slap at Downing (who is a better player than he showed last season but should have never been mistaken for a 20m player)

    “Don’t forget RvP’s not insubstantial wages! Especially if you count what AFC had allotted for him in his extension.”

    Absolutely but it looks like Wenger is going for 17-year-old M’Baye Niang. Caen has rejected a 7m pound bid. I know this will lead to some criticism/bitching about “Wenger only buys kids” from the same brigade who dismissed him buying the Ox last year. What’s missed is this kid will qualify as a homegrown and is generally thought to be the next Drogba. It will be interesting to see his development vis a vis Romelu Lukaku’s with the west-end chavs.

    “But, again, money’s worthless if it’s not spent. I respect your faith in The Voyeur – it’s well-earned on just about every level, except this one. There’s no pattern to suggest he’ll spend that money.”

    I guess we’ll have to see. What I’m suggesting is he’s now got the money to spend on a 30m player. That’s something he didn’t have two, three or four years ago for reasons that I’ve laid out in my previous answers. Again, you can choose to dismiss them but I’ve laid out the facts as to why.

    “A sum total of 6 points over 3 spots, that’s not quibbling? I guess someone should tell Pulis that Stoke was on the brink of relegation last year, then……..”

    No denying it was tight, except Arsenal always manages to find a way to finish where they do in the table, irrespective of the points total. And after that awful start, third was a remarkable achievement.

    “Ebbing tides lower all boats, AG. I made that point pretty gauddamn clear. It wasn’t an attempt to get LFC into title conversation. But since we’re on the subject, LFC was joint 3rd best in goals against. +0.5 more goals/game woulda put them in 4th. Given that Suarez was shitcanned for ~5 PL matches, Carroll & Kuyt were completely off the boil, and Lucas & SG were basically gone the whole season, improving from within is hardly unrealistic.”

    These arguments might hold more weight if LFC had not finished sixth and seventh the previous two seasons. You need to apply some of the clear-eyed criticism you demonstrated in your post that started “L’Arse: Mebbe the lack of strength I’ve been talking about is better reflected in EWTT’s assertion about AFC’s consistent underperforming and lack of solidity in their own 3rd” to LFC. Because I wholeheartedly agreed with that analysis.

    “So, yeah, I think if you can believe Wenger will spend £50m and win the title, I can believe LFC will play 4 spots better with 3 healthy “additions” (including AA) to the midfield, a 2nd full season of Suarez, and any production out of Borini/Carroll. (c:”

    LFC and AFC are heading into the season with different goals and a different set of expectations from supporters.

    Rory Smith, btw, claims Rodgers is pushing AA out the door at Anfield. In any event, how much is the return of a fully fit Wilshere to AFC’s midfield worth in your books? Or the improvement of the 18-year-old Ox? Perhaps Wenger relies a touch too much on this (particularly as United will improve with a fully fit Vidic returning to their back line) but he HAS already spent close to half that on Poldi and Giroud. Just quickly looking at shmish’s depth chart, I reckon he needs to spend more than 25m to challenge the Massive and Beetface in the league. That’s likely Yann M’Vila or another midfield colossus along with an attacking mid and defender who can play right back.

33. Alberta Gooner July 18th, 2012 4:00 pm :

    @shmish

    @ag
    “Here’s an XI with stand-ins Szczesny (Fabianski), Sagna (Jenkinson) Verminator (Mertesacker), Koscielny (Djourou), Gibbs (Santos), Song (Coquelin), Arteta (Wilshere), Ramsey (Rosicky), Poldi (Gervinho), Giroud (????), Walcott (the Ox). ”

    This is actually pretty enlightening. Here are my responses

    I’m largely comfortable where we are at in the back. Szczesny had an awful Euro2012 but he looked pretty good last year but for a couple of goals. He commands his area very well and will get better.

    If you are going to have a fourth choice CB, Djourou is just fine. Two seasons ago, he was our best defender and he qualifies as a homegrown. The issue is if he has to play out of position. He looked horrific at right back. I’m OK with Gibbs starting because Santos and Vermaelen both offer cover there but we could use somebody better than Jenkinson to deputize for Sagna, who is 29 and coming off a serious injury.

    As far as the midfield three go, I agree strengthening is necessary. Wilshere has proven he can do the business. I guess the remaining issue is whether Wenger sees the need to strengthen beyond Coquelin (whom he is very high on) and the Ramsey/Rosicky/Diaby option in the advanced role. I’ve also heard rumours that Wenger is experimenting with the Ox in that position.

    Up top, Vela has been sold but RvP, Bendtner, AA and Chamakh all remain on the books. A few of them have to move in order for Wenger to bring anybody in.

    errrr…. problem (preferably said with a slavic/russian accent, it’s just that much more effective that way). I don’t want to get up at 5am to see Jenkinson and Djourou stand in at the start of the game, with Gibbs snapping his hamstring at the 35:15 mark.

    Agreed. That’s a worst case scenario that we’ve seen all too often in recent years. For whatever reason, Winterburn, Bould, Adams, Dixon, Lauren, Campbell, Keown, Toure never seem to get crocked as much as this lot.

    “That would be another 8-2 loss to either Manchester team. Actually, I take that back. I don’t mind Santos at all, I think his overall affect on the club is convincingly positive. Arteta is key, not sure if Wilshere can be the man. Of the the players mentioned above, which ones have a decent chance of scoring from outside or at the edge of the box on anything other than the break? Arteta. Verminator. I don’t know about Giroud.”

    The Ox has shown he can an eye for a long-range goal. And Gervinho is probably more likely to knock in a 20-yard screamer than an open header from two yards out. Poldi has scored some belters from distance, too.

34. Alberta Gooner July 18th, 2012 4:16 pm :

    @SL

    “Chamakh proved a valuable player when he arrived and scored some impressive goals when given a proper run of games when RvP was injured. It is “myopic” to suggest he has been a failure or “non-scoring” due tho the fact he was benched as soon as RvP was fit and as Wenger never had a plan B and you can’t expect ANY striker to ride the pine for 2 seasons and play the occasional 15-20 mins and score goals… UNREALISTIC!”

    So your plan would be to sit our club captain to give Chamakh some confidence? Have I got that right? Because you still need to score if you are going to be a striker. Chamakh had his opportunities, even in limited playing time, and failed to take them.

    “Same can be said about Wenger wasting money on a talented player like Chu Young who was bought and then given a blanket to share with Chamakh as they watched from the bench as RvP scored goals and Arsenal struggled to qualify for a CL spot and yet another uninspiring season.”

    The Park buy mystifies me. The circumstances surrounding that transfer were very odd, from rushing in at the last minute to pip Lille to the questions about his military service to his failure to play him. None of which absolves Chamakh for his poor performances but Wenger seemed to miss the mark badly on Park.

35. disturbance July 19th, 2012 7:45 am :

    http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/1125636/tottenham’s-ledley-king-announces-retirement?cc=5901

    Its a shame he had to retire. I truly believe that if he weren’t so oft-injured he would’ve been England’s premier CB.

36. rabiddeathmoose July 19th, 2012 9:19 am :

    To add to the pile, here’s Jonathan Wilson’s take on the matter of JT’s trial and acquittal.

37. disturbance July 19th, 2012 1:16 pm :

    I don’t know if I pointed this out before but this is why I can’t stand listening to moronic supporters of Liverpool. They claim Stewart Downing is crap because he didn’t score many goals and had even less assists. Then they say that Liverpool was unlucky because they hit the post a million times which Downing was one of the biggest culprits in terms of set up passes and his shots.

    People who actually understand football are so few and far between its scary.

38. Soccerlogical July 24th, 2012 11:33 am :

    Informative stuff AG.

    Although I do think Fergie a soccer/man management genius. I would argue that “the best manager of this generation” is one who proves himself managing more than one team and definitely more than one top league where language/cultural adaptation/world class tactics and strategy, etc are required.

    As for “Patrick Vieira” Diaby, the only thing worse than him being injury prone is his lack of development as he is simply garden variety at best. As for Song, I still say the guy lacks the necessary world class “presence” and more importantly intelligence and skill to be a proper box-to-box mid as evidenced by his constant neglect of defensive duties once he started displaying his chip passes for RvPs goals. We won’t win one major trophy with Song attempting his “offensive prowess”.

    Hopefully the likes of Wilshere (spelling OK?) Ramsey and Frimpong can cover for Song’s ACN absence and his constant “brain farts”. That is unless the likes of M’Vila or Fellaini come in for proper box-to-box duties or the likes of Angelo Palombo or Nigel de Jong sit in front of back four and let the creative players (or what is left of them) do the rest.

    PS Really looking forward to Laudrup’s Swansea as Michu and de Guzman are exciting players who will perform for the Dane. I’d like to see a proper striker added and I am sure the manager knows what he is doing.

39. Alberta Gooner July 24th, 2012 12:13 pm :

    @SL

    “I would argue that “the best manager of this generation” is one who proves himself managing more than one team and definitely more than one top league where language/cultural adaptation/world class tactics and strategy, etc are required.”

    What I said was he’s won enough silverware to back this claim, which others have advanced. Some would suggest sticking with the same massive club — and all the pressures — is much tougher. It is a lot rarer. Capello, Lippi, Mourinho and other top managers have moved around a lot. Fergie hasn’t.

    “As for “Patrick Vieira” Diaby, the only thing worse than him being injury prone is his lack of development as he is simply garden variety at best.”

    Wenger disagrees and I understand why. On my last visit to the Grove, Diaby scored twice and was MOTM. And when healthy, he was a starter for France.

    “As for Song, I still say the guy lacks the necessary world class “presence” and more importantly intelligence and skill to be a proper box-to-box mid as evidenced by his constant neglect of defensive duties once he started displaying his chip passes for RvPs goals. We won’t win one major trophy with Song attempting his “offensive prowess”.”

    In the Arsenal system, he is given license to roam forward with the expectation that Arteta or whomever is playing as the link man will drop deeper to cover him off. That’s one reason they worked so well together. It’s always interesting that the intelligence of our black footballers get called into question so often by our supporters and media types. Wenger doesn’t tolerate stupid footballers. Our supporters are a different story.

    “Hopefully the likes of Wilshere (spelling OK?) Ramsey and Frimpong can cover for Song’s ACN absence and his constant “brain farts”. That is unless the likes of M’Vila or Fellaini come in for proper box-to-box duties or the likes of Angelo Palombo or Nigel de Jong sit in front of back four and let the creative players (or what is left of them) do the rest.”

    Wilshere is out until September at the earliest and Wenger is being very cautious about setting a date for his return. Coquelin is being appointed as Song’s deputy.

    Rennes have set a 20m euro price on M’Vila but the club is having financial difficulties and may drop the price later in the window. If there’s a poor prognosis on Wilshere or Diaby gets crocked, Wenger may renew his interest.

    Everton want more than 20m for Fellaini so that is a nonstarter. FC Hollywood are being linked with de Jong. I’ve never seen Palombo linked with the club but he’s already in his thirities.

    “PS Really looking forward to Laudrup’s Swansea as Michu and de Guzman are exciting players who will perform for the Dane. I’d like to see a proper striker added and I am sure the manager knows what he is doing.”

    After his success in Spain, I’m looking forward to seeing what Laudrup does with the Swans. I’ll be interested to see how de Guzman fares in the Premier League.

40. gorn July 25th, 2012 3:46 am :

    For Matt Stanger to deny that ManUre has major sway over the FA is ludicrous. 1 5-match ban doesn’t erase decades of board membership and, to be political, a lack of severe disciplinary treatment. Seems like a pretty straight forward hatchet job by Stanger.

    shmish:
    Thank you, sir, and thanks for asking. Insured, dunno about a big claim tho. Living in a hotel kinda sucks, but I got a suite in an awesome area of town, so trying to make lemonade. (c: Going to Calgary to spend time with the old lady tomorrow. Theoretically that should help…… (c;

    AG:
    “Wenger would probably rather endure a lengthy conversation with his wife about that French hip hop songstress who allegedly (CENSORED)”
    You TOTALLY do my head in when you do this! If you make pop culture references [especially those involving randy(?) women], throw us non-rag readers a bone (or link), eh wot?

    “As my dear old dad used to say, ‘Money is the currency of whores, not the virtue of maidens.’ You could easily replace whores with agents, BTW. Or journalists.”
    My gaud, this is fucking GOLD, Jerry! GOLD!

    “Arsene’s rose-coloured view strikes me as repeating the same sort of insanity as last year, where we wound up overplaying [everyone any good]…. Bringing in M’Vila could create roster headaches but competition for places is an expectation at a top club. And if Arsenal wants to be considered as such as opposed to the Massive’s farm team, Wenger must rethink his position.”
    See?? We’re on the same gauddamn team. I don’t know why we end up arguing all the time. )c{

    “LFC have finished 6th, 7th and 8th in the past three seasons. Either they have been unlucky for three seasons or problems haven’t been addressed. “
    Both. Plus the management turnover and multiple changes in direction organizationally. Let’s face it, talking of moving goal posts, has any PL club driven them in circles more than LFC?

    “I’m suggesting there’s some larger reasons and provided some facts as to why. You seem offended by this.”
    Nah, bruv. Any “offense” is frustration with The Voyeur and his cold, dead grip on his dogma, not you. Full stop.
    I was just trying to explain my goal post comment, and stating for the record that your take on AW’s spending is a theory no less than the one I threw up. The result we agree on; why we’re here… not so much. (c: As I said earlier, I appreciate your steadfast faith in Wenger. It’s well earned. But not “in all things all the time” kinda thing. Mebbe that’s where I seem offended?

    “What we don’t know is whether [AW] came in too late, too low or there were other factors that caused the player to go elsewhere. Some agents hate his guts and that complicates things. Other players prefer to play in England and Spain. Some some of it might be Wenger’s parismony issue but that’s not the only thing at play.”
    Yes. There are many variables, some of which might have been beyond his control. But I’m pretty sure chav$, TGB, and MCFC get their men unless one of the others bids more. I’m not really interested in the “whys” of the lack of top-end reinforcements, just that they haven’t been here for a long time.

    “But you need to accept a large transfer fee doesn’t guarantee a better performance.”
    I will instruct you to a post I made just days ago (my 2nd paragraph)….
    You seemed to have understood my position and not disagreed with it there. Confused why we’re back there again? This is where I get frustrated with ya sometimes. I think we’ve moved onto something else, and then… we’re not. dc:

    “These arguments might hold more weight if LFC had not finished sixth and seventh the previous two seasons. You need to apply some of the clear-eyed criticism you demonstrated in your post [about l'Arse's defensive indiscipline].”
    Not really, they’re totally different arguments. Mebbe my verbosity is confusing you about my point?

    There’s a difference IMvhO between being a CL-capable team and a PL title-winning team. I, at your invite I might add, was simply making the argument that closing the gap between LFC and Spuds is less difficult than Les Gauls catching MCFC (not to mention a smaller point gap, historically). The goal is much smaller and requires less talent to do so. Given the man games lost, yada, yada, yada, LFC will be improved by just avoiding the few, but devastating, injuries they had. And they’ve addressed the need for goals with Borini. Carroll is an obvious question mark on multiple levels, but he’ll either play better (cuz he kinda cannye play worse) or bring money in to buy someone else who will.

    Put another way, Spuds seem ripe for a sizable drop (esp. if Modric leaves and Ade doesnae re-sign), EFC usually alternates good and bad seasons and have a weaker squad than last year, and BarCodes got a season of a lifetime outta Pardew. There’s at least as strong an argument for LFC being 4th/5th than any of these clubs.

    Which hardly the same as doing it. But to say a club that was picked by most to be a CL club last year *could* be one this season isn’t out of order. That’s not my expectation, but jumping from 8th to 4th isn’t exactly Valencia beating Mandril & DiveInc. for La Liga, either.

    “how much is the return of a fully fit Wilshere to AFC’s midfield worth in your books? Or the improvement of the 18-year-old Ox?”
    My problem here, and it may be a flaw in my own thinking, is that these guys aren’t addressing AFC’s most pressing needs. So, yes, both of those players, if they’re managed well and kept away from HRP’s medical staff, could be much better this season. Just not sure how that helps them on set plays or replacing RvP’s 432 goals last season. Plus, for every match they are starting/playing, someone else talented (Walcott and Ramsey?) is sitting. So they have to be VERY much better this season to improve AFC, from a replacement-level-on-the-pitch point of view, if you get my meaning?

    “I’ll be interested to see how de Guzman fares in the Premier League.”
    You and me both, brother. For some time I’ve been feeling way less angry that he chose Netherlands with each passing day.

    Hoilett, OTOH, WTF? Is his value really this low that he doesnae have a home? Is his agent some kind of Scott Boras wannabe? I’m starting to get mad that a top club hasnae picked him up yet, since he’s just sitting there, on a free….

41. Soccerlogical July 25th, 2012 11:13 am :

    As I recall, Laudrup got the best outta de Guzman at Mallorca. Obviously the EPL is a different animal. I also wouldn’t be surprised if AVB fails at Tottenham and we see the likes of Laudrup or Spanish Bob step in.

    You guys are right about Hoillet,… needs a better agent as I can see the winger as a major contributor at any top club.

    Good to see Rodgers sign Allen from his old club as we will see less of the overhyped scrub Jordan Henderson and more of “real deal” players with true potential a la Joe Allen and Shelvey. As for Borini scoring goals for Liverpool, he scored a few from an advanced midfield position at Roma but then fizzled off so IMO the guy has around a 30-40% chance of success at his new home playing under a familiar manager.

42. Alberta Gooner July 25th, 2012 10:24 pm :

    @Gorn

    “You TOTALLY do my head in when you do this! If you make pop culture references [especially those involving randy(?) women], throw us non-rag readers a bone (or link), eh wot?”

    Um, there was a reference to reports in more unseemly, non-PG rated media about an alleged fling between Le Prof and a French singer. Google Sonia Tatar and Arsene Wenger for all the sordid details. It was deemed worthy of debate in some Holloway Road Properties circles for a couple reasons. Anti-Wengerites used it as “proof” that Wenger had lost his focus. The In Arsene We Trust crowd saw it as a potential sign of a coming apocalypse because they worried the current Madam Wenger would tear his head off and shit down the hole or force him to quit the technical area. Either way, the theory went we’d be looking for a manager before his contract expired.

    “As my dear old dad used to say, ‘Money is the currency of whores, not the virtue of maidens.’ You could easily replace whores with agents, BTW. Or journalists.”
My gaud, this is fucking GOLD, Jerry! GOLD!”

    Thanks for the kind words!
    
    “We’re on the same gauddamn team. I don’t know why we end up arguing all the time. )c{“

    I agree with you that Arsene has money to spend and that there’s holes to fill in the squad. Where we disagree is I don’t think he had the wad of cash burning a hole in his pocket five years ago. And I would rather see him spend 7m on buying a Lucas Leiva than 18m on Owen Hargreaves.

    “Let’s face it, talking of moving goal posts, has any PL club driven them in circles more than LFC?”

    Agreed, they sort of remind me of Spurs from about five or six years ago.

    “Nah, bruv. Any “offense” is frustration with The Voyeur and his cold, dead grip on his dogma, not you. Full stop.
I
    was just trying to explain my goal post comment, and stating for the record that your take on AW’s spending is a theory no less than the one I threw up. The result we agree on; why we’re here… not so much. (c: As I said earlier, I appreciate your steadfast faith in Wenger. It’s well earned. But not “in all things all the time” kinda thing. Mebbe that’s where I seem offended?”

    Gotcha and we’re cool. Did I mention how glad I am that you are back on the blog and commenting? It’s a hell of a lot more fun for me and I suspect the rest of the regulars wholeheartedly agree with this. Even that lovable Manc EWTT.

    “There are many variables, some of which might have been beyond his control. But I’m pretty sure chav$, TGB, and MCFC get their men unless one of the others bids more. I’m not really interested in the “whys” of the lack of top-end reinforcements, just that they haven’t been here for a long time.”

    I’ll admit this puzzles me, too, at least since Cesc and Nasri left. We appeared to be in pole position for Juan Mata last summer and it suddenly fell apart, which was apparently down to us failing to meet a deadline. That seems to have allowed the Rent Boyz to swoop in. It was embarrassingly sloppy by the standards of any top club and nobody – not Wenger, not Gazidis, not Dick Law – has ever really addressed it. That followed the slapstick chase for Joel Campbell, which ended with us failing to secure a work permit for the kid, which demonstrated a real slapheaded approach to the details. So my faith in Arsenal isn’t unwavering. As I’ve said, there’s some valid criticisms to be made. No way that kind of two-bit horseshit would happen at Anfield, Old Trafford, the Camp Nou, either side of Milan or FC Hollywood. It was a joke.

    I’m willing to give Wenger a pass on M’Vila because the kid’s behaviour off the field and form in Rennes’ run-in caused some concerns before his strop at Euro 2012. But the fact that he was looking at him suggests that position needs to be strengthened so if it’s not M’Vila, why not take a run at Javi Martinez, Chiek Tiote or Daniele de Rossi? Midfielders of that calibre would improve our side as much as M’Vila. And price should not be an object. The other side is Wenger may have received assurances from the medical team that Wilshere and Diaby would be ready to go. His faith in that group is certainly a blind spot, more so than his real or imagined parsimony in the transfer market.

    “I will instruct you to a post I made just days ago (my 2nd paragraph)….
You seemed to have understood my position and not disagreed with it there. Confused why we’re back there again? This is where I get frustrated with ya sometimes. I think we’ve moved onto something else, and then… we’re not. dc:”

    Sorry about the confusion; we’ll move on.

    “Not really, they’re totally different arguments. Mebbe my verbosity is confusing you about my point?”

    My point is you (rightly) see structural flaws in the way Arsenal defends and they are consistent. The same problems plague Liverpool in attack IMHO.

    “There’s a difference IMvhO between being a CL-capable team and a PL title-winning team. I, at your invite I might add, was simply making the argument that closing the gap between LFC and Spuds is less difficult than Les Gauls catching MCFC (not to mention a smaller point gap, historically). The goal is much smaller and requires less talent to do so. Given the man games lost, yada, yada, yada, LFC will be improved by just avoiding the few, but devastating, injuries they had. And they’ve addressed the need for goals with Borini. Carroll is an obvious question mark on multiple levels, but he’ll either play better (cuz he kinda cannye play worse) or bring money in to buy someone else who will. Put another way, Spuds seem ripe for a sizable drop (esp. if Modric leaves and Ade doesnae re-sign), EFC usually alternates good and bad seasons and have a weaker squad than last year, and BarCodes got a season of a lifetime outta Pardew. There’s at least as strong an argument for LFC being 4th/5th than any of these clubs. Which hardly the same as doing it. But to say a club that was picked by most to be a CL club last year *could* be one this season isn’t out of order. That’s not my expectation, but jumping from 8th to 4th isn’t exactly Valencia beating Mandril & DiveInc. for La Liga, either.”

    I could see LFC finishing fifth this season. But even FSG recognizes the size of the task facing Brendan Rodgers because they have not set a top-four place as a target. They will need to overhaul Rent Boyz, Spuds and the Bar Codes. Two of those clubs are certain to spend more money than FSG is going to provide Rodgers. While spending isn’t a pancea, LFC badly need to improve their options up front and the midfield. Let me put this another way. How many LFC players would get a regular game with Holloway Road Properties, Rent Boyz, the lesser lights or the bar codes? That’s their theoretical competition if you cede the top two places to the greater Salford outfits, which most people have done.

    “My problem here, and it may be a flaw in my own thinking, is that these guys aren’t addressing AFC’s most pressing needs. So, yes, both of those players, if they’re managed well and kept away from HRP’s medical staff, could be much better this season. Just not sure how that helps them on set plays or replacing RvP’s 432 goals last season. Plus, for every match they are starting/playing, someone else talented (Walcott and Ramsey?) is sitting. So they have to be VERY much better this season to improve AFC, from a replacement-level-on-the-pitch point of view, if you get my meaning?”

    We’ll agree to disagree about Wilshere not addressing a key need. When Arteta was missing last year, we had a horrific record. Wilshere fills the same role and everybody else asked to perform that deep midfield quarterback/link man role failed in it miserably. Our key needs to address in the transfer market, as I see them, is to provide options in the midfield as well as add cover for Bacary Sagna. Santi Carzola’s pursuit addresses one need. M’Vila would address another. Between Giroud and Podolski, I’m pretty comfortable with our options up top.

    Having talented players sit doesn’t bother me – the modern game is a squad one, especially if you are playing in the Champions League. If you look at both greater Salford outfits, there is competition for places and talented players sitting in every match. About the only ever-presents last year for the Massive were Yaya and Vincent Kompany. With Salford, it was Rooney.

    “You and me both, brother. For some time I’ve been feeling way less angry that he (de Guzman) chose Netherlands with each passing day.”

    Yeah, I hear that.

    “Hoilett, OTOH, WTF? Is his value really this low that he doesnae have a home? Is his agent some kind of Scott Boras wannabe? I’m starting to get mad that a top club hasnae picked him up yet, since he’s just sitting there, on a free….”

    What’s interesting is how he’s traveled downmarket in the rumour mills after starting the summer being linked with Holloway Road Properties and FSG, among others. I agree his salary demands may have put off some clubs. Fingers crossed he finds the right environment to continue his development and then suits up for Canada.

43. Alberta Gooner July 25th, 2012 10:36 pm :

    @SL

    “As I recall, Laudrup got the best outta de Guzman at Mallorca. Obviously the EPL is a different animal. I also wouldn’t be surprised if AVB fails at Tottenham and we see the likes of Laudrup or Spanish Bob step in.”

    Laudrup was one of my favourite players and he did a fantastic job at both Getafe and Mallorca. I’m excited to see what he can do with the Swans. de Guzman will apparently get a chance to show his chops because it looks like Joe Allen is moving on to FSG.

    You guys are right about Hoillet,… needs a better agent as I can see the winger as a major contributor at any top club.

    What amazes me is Victor Moses can be linked to Rent Boyz and Holloway Road and Hoilett appears frozen out. It certainly appears to be an agent issue.

    “Good to see Rodgers sign Allen from his old club as we will see less of the overhyped scrub Jordan Henderson and more of “real deal” players with true potential a la Joe Allen and Shelvey. As for Borini scoring goals for Liverpool, he scored a few from an advanced midfield position at Roma but then fizzled off so IMO the guy has around a 30-40% chance of success at his new home playing under a familiar manager.”

    Borini does have some experience in England, having played for Rodgers with Rent Boyz youf and rezzies so I’d expect him to bed in pretty quickly. Everything I’ve read suggests Borini will be deployed as a wide front man.

44. Soccerlogical July 25th, 2012 11:00 pm :

    @AG
    Our banter reminds me of that of my dad and grandad. All is hunky dory until the subject of The Vietnam War gets brought up except in our case it’s a certain Frenchman. LOL

45. disturbance August 3rd, 2012 12:33 pm :

    I’m glad AA got a chance with Liverpool…in any case, I watched that Liverpool game and we did not look good at all. I really don’t get the need to get rid of some of these players that are perfect for BR’s system…Really excited for another 8th place finish!

46. Alberta Gooner August 3rd, 2012 5:33 pm :

    @disturbance

    Aquilani’s departure baffles me and it will be fascinating to hear the spin. Rory Smith, who is a well connected at Anfield and an astute observer of all things LFC, thinks FIorentina has gotten a great player at a bargain. I tend to agree. I cannot understand why they would see Joe Allen as a better option than AA and pay 15m for him. Allen played well in one season for a midtable club, which looks an awful lot like Stewart Downing’s CV. Now I think Downing will improve this year but there’s no way he was a 20m player any more than Allen is worth 15m.

    LFC will not finish as low as 8th but they are making the same kind of mistakes in the transfer market as last year. The difference is Rodgers has some goodwill with both supporters and FSG. There’s also lower expectations on the terraces, media, blogosphere and in the executive suite.

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